I love Firefox but I’m starting to dislike the community on this stub!

This sub is so toxic. Things I don't like on this sub:

1) People using antiquated versions and asking for support.

Do you want to rung FF v56? Fine! Use it, don't ask for help here. You are butt naked on the web with v56. It has a shitload of security holes. Mozilla does not have the people to fix issues on that version.

Use a fork! There are quite a few forks made by people that don't like FF v57+ Use them, ask for help on their forums/subs! Ranting here that you are using a really old build and Mozilla is mean to YOU is really depressing us.

2) Complaining about decisions made by Mozilla a few years back.

a) addon signing - remember the new tab hijackers? remember the search engine hijackers? 3 rows of toolbars on your parent's computers? They are gone now due to addon signing. You could have complained then, but Mozilla did not change anything so get over it! Use a fork!

You should complain about the fact that the addon signing did not work recently. Software has bugs! Shocking! It was bad. I'm pretty sure I would have done the exact same bug as the Firefox devs. I purchased certificates, I worked a lot with them but I never saw an intermediary cert that expires before the certificate it signed. You don't usually get a cert, you get a cert chain and the leaf cert (the one you are using) will be the first one to expire. Please don't act like a cert guru that tells the Firefox devs what should they have done. Pretty sure ALL of the Firefox devs know that by know. It's bad that this happened, but I doubt that anybody on this sub could have prevented it.

b) using studies to ship features - Firefox will use studies! Get over it! Use a fork that does not use studies! You cannot innovate without studies! This month Mozilla will ship WebRender to stable users! You cannot do that without studies! They shipped TLS 1.3 and A LOT of features like that. If you don't want to help Mozilla innovate, that is ok! Disable studies! But when a hotfix is shipped like that, I guess you can enable studies to get the fix and then disable them back. It's not hard. Orr..... drum rolls..... USE A FORK! Use a fork that does not take part in standards committees, does not try to push the web forward. Brave, Vivaldi and other Chrome forks benefit from Google's data collection. They do not innovate on the web stuff, just nice UI on top of Google's spyware. Use that! Just don't spread hate here for a decision that was taken a long time ago.

c) XUL - XUL is dead! get over it!

d) Pocket - you cannot finance the open web with donations. Mozilla is partnering up with various companies to try to get non-Google financing. They are working on expading their services with VPN, scroll, lockbox. Some of them will get revenue, some will not. If you don't care about the open web, switch to another browser. Firefox is the only one that cares about the open web and having some built features that create revenue in an ethical way is the best solution Mozilla found to sustain itself.

e) Cliqz - I see this over and over in the comments. Please get over this. Mozilla decides what search engine gets preinstalled. It is their main revenue source and they want to divesify that. It used to be Google, they switched to Yahoo and then back to Google. You can change that if you want to! They tried out Cliqz which is more privacy friendly than both Google and Yahoo, it is owned by Mozilla partially and it is registered in a country with the toughest privacy laws. Everybody on this sub went CRAZY! Mozilla backed down. They listened to people! Complain when the issue is hot, but not years after some decision was made!

3) Users that somehow magically know how to build Firefox more than the Firefox developers

If you are not a browser developer, please do not offer advice to the developers. You can say "I have this problem, please fix it!" but not "I want you to implement this in order to fix my problem!".

4) Divorce letters

Please switch to another browser and leave us alone. "Goodbye Firefox! I will leave you forever!" never helps! Ask for help! Complain about issues once you are using Firefox but when you leave, we don't care! Have fun with whatever browser you think it's better. I wish you all the best in your new choice! Throwing shit at a browser you have been using for years is not helping anybody!

tl;dr

Please try not to be negative!

Complain about things that can be changed, not about old issues or things that are set in stone.

Use the options that Mozilla offers you like disabling/enabling/configuring your install as you wish.

If disabling does not work, use a fork and ask for help there, not here.

If you got sick of Firefox-based browsers and the open web, use some other browser and ask for help on that sub, don't come here just to spread hate.

Do things that generally can have a positive outcome.

79 thoughts on “I love Firefox but I’m starting to dislike the community on this stub!”

  1. So basically you are a *fanboy*, you support everything they do without question or criticism, while criticizing those who dare find fault with Mozilla. You’re wrong, no one is going to listen to you. Many people see many of the changes occurring with Firefox as misguided, and they will point that out. And if you don’t like it write more of these, because one is allowed to voice their opinion here, or to quote your thrice-used dismissive, *”get over it!”*

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  2. Personally, I think it’s important to remember that most people coming to this sub right now are specifically here because they either want updates on the situation or are here to complain.

    As such, there’s going to be a lot more people here specifically for negative reasons than normally.

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  3. I am quite happy that i have always hated addon signing, and disabled it in nightly. I got over this whole mess without losing any data or my daily workflow being affected anyway. Though i do not deny those shady toolbars and search engines were a mess, i have been using linux and it is relatively immune to such softwares. Even if it does happen, its not very tough to remove them anyways. Although i disabled signature verification due to stubbornness, i got a pretty good reason to do so now.
    Also i believe people must be free to choose whatever software they want, and be responsible for the risks they take while using it. Most of us aren’t kids here who need to be held by hand and put on latest versions for the experience considered ideal by the developer. Someone likes firefox 3.0, fine, he is free to use it. I see no problem if someone asks for a solution on this sub. If you don’t have it, well, just scroll by, if you happen to share similar interest or know the answer, whats the problem in answering? Nets not so expensive that it incurs a huge loss at loading some text

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  4. I’m sick of people who complain when they find hair and rat poop in their food! Restaurants are only run by human beings! If you hate hair and rat poop so much, then quietly go somewhere else and stop bothering those of us who don’t mind foreign contaminants in our meals!

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  5. when I signed on yesterday morning and noticed all my addons were disabled, I immediately assumed it was a problem that would be patched soon. out of curiosity I came to this sub and it was in full melt-down mode. the internet forum equivalent to a riot in the streets.

    I switched over to Brave for my morning browsing then left to run the daily errands.

    When I got back later that day lo and behold firefox was working like normal again as I had expected it would. the world hadn’t ended afterall…

    hopefully this was a lessons to the kids who spent their day in crisis mode yesterday and probably stressed a year off their life expectancy.

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  6. I haven’t actually been on this sub long. I’m an IT professional who was (stupidly) using an ancient build because i really liked my multirow tabs and bookmark toolbars. This fiasco got me over to new firefox and quantum which is actually a massive improvement. (but doesn’t change the fact that I still think it’s nonsense that firefox got so crazy about locking down the UX/UI – if I wanted a standardized UI I’d use chrome, easy modularity is why I liked firefox in the first place)

    All that said, I’m sure there are many others who got compliant/modern with this mess. That doesn’t change the fact that it still pissed me off – I have a bunch of notes for when my certs expire for my personal shit in my calendar, so this won’t happen. it’s simple. At my last place our whole web team had a calendar dedicated to it along with some folks on the admin team who were also copied with all alerting. And I’m sure there are a ton of great automated ways to monitor cert expiry and alert when necessary, so this is kind of an incomprehensibly stupid fuckup. Bitching about it is how folks deal and get through the problem. What has offended me the most is all these weird anti-rant rants ranting toxicly about all the toxic rants they don’t like. I get that I’m like, the peta-rant at this point but honestly folks venting is how they deal with this, with all of this. If we could all just chill and think “it’ll be fine in a few days” things would blow over a lot smoother.

    And the argument that “firefox will do X it was decided long ago” is kind of disgustingly inaccurate. Pointing out options to not participate in this type of telemetry and data gathering is good but arguing that the hammer dropped long ago stfu is terrible. that’s like saying “I don’t care if you got all your shit stolen, you weren’t home, statue of limitations go cry in your pie!” Folks becoming aware and sharing their outrage is a good indicator that this behavior isn’t well liked and mozilla in observation of these discussions might consider a more straight forward opt-in vs opt-out option.

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  7. I really don’t understand what you expect.

    There’s posts reminding people that people are humans, as if thats some new knowledge.

    Since we’re all already humans, what part of human nature is so hard to understand here?

    You made a thing, people like to use the thing. You broke the thing, people who use it are upset.

    The solution is taking a bit long, people are not patient, and why should they be, it took very little time to forget how your system works, but the resolution is pretty half assed and still not resolved.

    To add even more, the communication about said issue says it’s fixed and you don’t need to do anything, which is only true if you didn’t change settings, thus it’s basically a lie with the don’t need to do anything portion.

    So, yeah, basically the daily life of an IT person, no one cares about you till something doesn’t work, then they all hate you. Trying to remind them that your human doesn’t matter.

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  8. 2) Complaining about decisions made by Mozilla a few years back.
    …You could have complained then…

    what the… WE DID! I know I complained when they murdered extensions!

    and i also complained when firefox went adware

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  9. I’m not one of the people who complains on this sub. I didn’t do it for this mistake, I probably won’t do it for future mistakes either. I’m quite lenient on Mozilla by any standard. I was all for Quantum, I ran Aurora till relatively recently, I understand and support addon signing, I don’t care about a lot of the issues people had with _advertising_ on FF (because hey! That’s what a `user.js` is for, isn’t it?) and the Mr. Robot thing was easily forgivable. I understand that Mozilla has to gain money from _somewhere_, so they’re trying loads of things. I am fully cognizant of the fact that a browser does not get developed in a vacuum with no money.

    That said, a mistake which causes my browsing setup to break _this_ badly is pretty up there on an imaginary list of items I’d hold Mozilla responsible for. This is not an unforeseen bug (security or otherwise). This is a bad mistake. A mistake caused by negligence or a breakdown in the chain of communication within Mozilla. It left me _livid_ that I wasn’t able to use an extensively customised container tabs setup for browsing. The fact that my addons suddenly stopped working in the middle of browsing and remained so for nearly the entire day affected my browsing quite badly. And that my entire container tabs setup was destroyed was the cherry on the cake. I expect better from Mozilla.

    I understand they don’t have Google’s resources to throw at their dev teams. I understand the people working on this are also human. I am understanding enough to not rail at them. But this mistake is enough to break through my indulgence towards Mozilla. Yes, they made a mistake. It was a very avoidable one with serious consequences for certain people, like my friends in China who use Tor. While the ones in China might have no other choice, it’s stuff like _this_ which cause me to think twice before recommending FF to people I know. Chrome and Safari at least “just work” for most of them. With this kind of tomfoolery, I’m not sure I can say the same about FF any more.

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  10. > Use a fork that does not use studies!

    Or, you know… turn them off. It still shocks me how often people will complain about a feature that can simply be turned off. Same with Pocket integration.

    Now, complaining about a feature that is forced onto the users with no option is valid… but just stop with the ones that the user can easily fix for themselves.

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  11. >2) Complaining about decisions made by Mozilla a few years back.
    >
    >a) addon signing – remember the new tab hijackers? remember the search engine hijackers? 3 rows of toolbars on your parent’s computers?

    Nope because this effected literally no one I know or anyone I know of. It was such a small % of people that got affected and the rest of us got punished for their stupidity.

    I agree with #1 100%, but a lot of this post is just condescending. And most of all, you don’t need to be a developer to give advice/criticism.

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  12. I really don’t understand the notion of defending a company as large as Mozilla when they fuck up. Yes, people should be civil, but Mozilla fucked up big time and there’s no reason to pretend that never happened.

    They made a change most of their power users were against, and then it shortly blew up in their faces when it disabled pretty much 100% of the userbase’s addons. If people don’t hold Mozilla accountable for this and don’t complain they won’t realize how big this problem was.

    As for the points you’ve made,

    1. This seems to be something just personally bothering you. I agree staying on outdated versions are a bad idea, but it was entirely irrelevant to this whole situation.

    2a. You make good points about why add-on signing is beneficial, but the main problem is that Mozilla removed the user’s ability to disable signature verification. This is exactly the kind of situation in which that option would be helpful, yet most of the userbase was forced to wait for an update (which in my opinion still has not come out)

    >I doubt anybody on this sub could have prevented it

    No one on this sub could’ve set a reminder a few days before the cert expired? If no one could’ve done anything that means every company with any kind of cert should have it expire before renewal since its so difficult.

    2b.

    >get over it!

    Mozilla has previously abused this system to install the Mr. Robot ARG. Sure, it wasn’t very malicious, but Mozilla has already proven to not be trustworthy (at least that’s how I and many others feel) regarding what they remotely install. Telling people to “get over” something is a copout response that tries to negate any and all criticism. How is the browser supposed to improve if people can’t give negative feedback?

    2c. I don’t feel too strongly on this subject and I understand why Mozilla deprecated XUL, but hundreds of addons have died, many of which can’t be replicated. In this case there really isn’t anything Mozilla can do at this point, so complaining is useless, but I can sympathize with these people.

    2d. You didn’t actually address pocket itself and talked about Mozilla’s good intentions and need for funding. I, as the end user, don’t really care about that as much as I care about the functionality of the browser. Firefox used to not have pocket, and then it got a new “feature” added which wasn’t even fully open source for a long time. If it was open source from day one I wouldn’t have cared at all.

    2e. Once again, “please get over this” isn’t a valid argument. The problem with cliqz was that it received”anonymized browsing data” without any input from the user. Telemetry should always be opt in, but at least Firefox telemetry shows you its enabled. Cliqz was added without telling anyone and that’s what annoyed people.

    >complain when the issue is hot, but not years later

    There’s a saying “forgive but do not forget”. Mozilla has broken people’s trust once and it would be unwise to forget this, since it could happen again. The complaints against the cliqz experiment were perfectly valid in my opinion.

    3. Once again you’re trying to dismiss any negative criticism by saying that Mozilla developers know more than users. This may be true in *some* cases, but there certainly are people here who are more talented that the developers. Even if we talk about the average user, of course they could have useful suggestions and notice problems with the browser. Its like how Olympic gymnastic judges work. They can give a gymnast a bad score even if they can’t do the same things, because they can still recognize problems with the performance. Similarly, a user can notice an issue with a browser even if they’re not a developer.

    4. I agree, there’s no reason to post that kind of thing here.

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  13. People drifted to Firefox because they wanted control over their browser, and now Firefox moves further and further away from control. Of course people are going to be toxic.

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  14. I like your post 😀 I will never switch to another browser. Once you understand that Firefox is the only browser not developed by a for-profit corporation, you shouldn’t want to switch either. Monopolies are never good.

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  15. >2) Complaining about decisions made by Mozilla a few years back.

    What just happened was half the point of the criticism of the choices made a few years back. So naturally there’s going to be an I told you so.

    >a) addon signing – remember the new tab hijackers? remember the search engine hijackers? 3 rows of toolbars on your parent’s computers? They are gone now due to addon signing. You could have complained then, but Mozilla did not change anything so get over it! Use a fork!

    I absolutely remember, even if it never effected me. But the fact is that Firefox’s policy of including a “pref off” that globally allowed all unsafe addons was just as absurd as their present policy of allowing none. Any such exception needs to be on a per app basis, requiring whitelists that cannot be automated through a series of confirmation dialogs. The addons of mine that Firefox zapped a few ago were addons that I wrote myself and only got used on my machine. But because a few people couldn’t manage to not get hijacked I’m now forced to trust other peoples code. And in reviewing some of these addons approved by Mozilla some of them use obfuscated code, and still got approved. The machine of other people that got hijacked that I worked on wasn’t really that big a deal to fix. Not even the ones that bypassed the regular plugin folder and installed as a separate program altogether. This should have never been allowed to begin with.

    I’m perfectly happy with most of the changes Firefox made, including nixing ZUL. Most of the ones I’m not happy about is really no big deal because that’s just me and my quirks. But moving from a global allow all unsafe addons settings to globally deny all unapproved addons are absurdly ridiculous extremes in both cases.

    >​You can say “I have this problem, please fix it!” but not “I want you to implement this in order to fix my problem!”.

    The addon issue is not asking anything to be implemented to fix my problems. I’m asking for Firefox NOT to implement this such that it effectively outlaws solving my own problems of any type. Yet a stranger on the internet that went through their bureaucracy can do pretty much whatever they want to my machine using obfuscated code I can’t even review effectively.

    >Complain about things that can be changed, not about old issues or things that are set in stone.

    Nothing is set in stone and everything I’ve complained about are things that can easily be changed.

    If you think I’m going to stop complaining my advice is your advice:

    >Complain about things that can be changed, not about old issues or things that are set in stone.

    Because my complaints are set in stone and will NEVER change.

    >Use the options that Mozilla offers you like disabling/enabling/configuring your install as you wish.

    That’s exactly what I want, the options for disabling/enabling/configuring my install as I wish. Instead I am forced to depend on strangers on the internet to do it for me for no other reason than that I don’t have a permission slip from Mozilla to do it.

    >If disabling does not work, use a fork and ask for help there, not here.

    I don’t need anybodies help to do anything I want. But, according to Mozilla, I need their *permission* to do it on my own computer.

    >If you got sick of Firefox-based browsers and the open web,

    How is it an open web when Mozilla requires me to get their permission to make changes on my own computer?

    >Do things that generally can have a positive outcome.

    Like complaining about being denied the ability to use my own self written plugins on my own computer?

    My complaining will not stop.

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  16. You are talking about how you dislike the negativity, and then you post a lengthy letter shitting on everyone who has a complaint. These people are here complaining because there are legitimate things to complain about, not because they are idiot whiners. And there’s a lot of them.

    You don’t want negativity? Don’t write a laundry list of things you hate.

    Thank God everyone isn’t like you, because a lot of good help has been dispensed here to fix issues for a variety of users in the last couple of days.

    This all comes across as “think like me, and if you don’t, go away.” Seriously, are you a spokesman for FF?

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  17. Do you think an antivirus company would tolerate this? A VPN developer? Even a networking professor would flunk you straight out of class.
    Welcome to the internet. People get toxic. Don’t start blaming the people when it’s the plant that dumped the waste.

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  18. Yeah this sub is the most negative sub I follow, I just want a sub which gives me cool tips about how to use Firefox and gives me news about new updates.

    Every time I see anything on here it’s just whinging. Mozilla is a non-profit, they’re probably doing their best and everything they do is to try and continue and improve their services.

    People here demonize Mozilla so much

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  19. > Do you want to rung FF v56? Fine! Use it, don’t ask for help here. You are butt naked on the web with v56. It has a shitload of security holes. Mozilla does not have the people to fix issues on that version.

    Where else are they going to ask for support? Mozilla certainly isn’t going to support it, so we have to ask others in a similar situation. Reddit just happens to be the best place to find them. You’re not the only one here and you don’t get to limit the discussion to only things you care about

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  20. >This sub is so toxic. Things I don’t like on this sub:
    >
    >
    >
    >Do you want to rung FF v56? Fine! Use it, don’t ask for help here.

    I think I found the source of the toxicity.

    > Please switch to another browser and leave us alone.
    >
    >
    >
    > tl;dr Please try not to be negative!

    Thanks, I’ll remember that.

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  21. 1. People were using old versions because they worked for them. Now due to Mozilla’s screwup they stopped working. Nobody’s asking them to fix issues — just that they don’t break shit.

    2. a) Mozilla was warned in no uncertain terms about what was going to happen. Furthermore, they disabled the override capability, but only for Windows users, as Linux and Android stable releases apparently allow it. How anybody could have thought this was a good thing is beyond me. This is why everybody is mad, not because they failed to update the certificate.
    b) Studies are fine as long as they are off by default. The fact that (apparently) support for new security standard TLS 1.3 was shipped through a study is rather insane.
    d) I don’t give a flying f*ck about pocket. But let’s not pretend that bundling crapware without any possibility to reject it is a good thing. If Mozilla needs money, they can tell us and I, for instance, would happily donate, just as I have done in the past.

    3. If you’re not a shoemaker, you cannot ask for the shoe to have a wider sole not to pinch your foot. That’s the level of stupidity of this point.
    Yes, we can absolutely ask for the mess to be fixed in a certain way, preferably by implementing granular override on a per-addon basis so that addons which are no longer maintained can still be used in perpetuity. Also, improve your signature checking — there is no reason whatsoever for the addons to be disabled just because one certificate which was previously used to sign them had expired. Certificate expiration does not invalidate the signature. Timestamp your signatures, dammit.

    4. This allows Mozilla to look at the reasons why their share is dwindling. They get feedback for free, yet choose not to act on it. And they better listen because their share is down to less than 10 percent and yet they continually manage to screw over their core users. You cannot beat Chrome in being Chrome, sillies.

    tl.dr. If you screw over every user of your product due to your arrogance and ineptitude to handle the consequences of your decision, expect a modicum of negativity. Don’t make software that breaks itself.

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  22. If I wouldn’t love Firefox I would not be here to complain about this shitshow and vent my anger and give some recommendations for change…..Nope I would just not care and do other things.

    @ OP If you don’t tell me how to be, I won’t tell you how to be. If not; Mind your own business!

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  23. > But when a hotfix is shipped like that, I guess you can enable studies to get the fix and then disable them back. It’s not hard.

    The browser version stayed the same but the behavior changed. Enabling studies changed more than just fixing armagadd-on-2.0. This feels a bit off. That this isn’t documented is unfortunate. Getting downvoted and criticized just for asking is another side of the problems in /r/firefox.

    > They tried out Cliqz which is more privacy friendly than both Google and Yahoo, it is owned by Mozilla partially and it is registered in a country with the toughest privacy laws.

    I’m from this country. I wouldn’t praise privacy of a project owned by a German media company.

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  24. Thanks for this post.

    You know, I actually made the switch from Chrome-based browsers to Firefox *just last Friday* because I want to support the open web and prevent a Google monopoly. Couldn’t have picked a worse time, right?

    But apart from the hiccup yesterday, I’ve actually been very impressed with how Firefox performs, the level of control users have, and the privacy-oriented settings – and I will continue to use it. I’m even pleased with the range of extensions available. Yes it was a blunder but, for the sake of the web I hope this blows over.

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  25. You’re the one being toxic here. Firefox would be nothing without the users, not the other way around. Stop acting like criticizing Firefox is blasphemous.

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  26. Regardless what version they are using, they are not asking for support, but not to have a browser they like to be F’d with despite having all the updates turned off. This is one of the greatest cluster F’s I have ever seen by a developer so they deserve it.

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  27. People use old versions because new versions broke important things. For example: literally every add-on from their original API. And briefly, literally every add-on from their *new* API.

    We complained about these decisions when they were fresh. When they were planned, in fact. We predicted these problems. Nobody listened. Now everyone’s listening and you say it’s too late.

    Toxicity is acknowledging people’s complaints and having no response besides “get over it!” – over and over again. Pretending problems don’t matter is a sign of abusive relationships.

    I’ve had gripes about Mozilla for fifteen straight years. When exactly was the right time to voice these complaints?

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  28. Never been in this sub in my life, and I’m using Firefox for ~15 years. I came here to seek for help, for a good reason – Mozzila messed up.

    What do you expect, write peom about Firefox ? share a story how I never used any other browser ? I’m Firefox user and nothing will change th…oh sorry I have to end this rant some girl with big boobs wants to chat with me…nevermind! I just realized it was some bullshit pop-up.

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  29. >You cannot innovate without studies!

    A/B tests aren’t the only way to test things, you can also use Nightly for that. Although yes, if you want to test for the stable users it is one of the more useful ways.

    >This month Mozilla will ship WebRender to stable users! You cannot do that without studies! They shipped TLS 1.3 and A LOT of features like that.

    Again, it is possible to do all of that without studies, studies just prevent bugs being released to majority.

    >If you don’t want to help Mozilla innovate, that is ok! Disable studies!

    Unless you use one of the pre-release versions, follow/comment on bugs, use config flags, …

    >But when a hotfix is shipped like that, I guess you can enable studies to get the fix and then disable them back. It’s not hard.

    Actually, it is. [Quoting the blog post](https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2019/05/04/update-regarding-add-ons-in-firefox/):

    > It may take up to six hours for the Study to be applied to Firefox.

    I can confirm that it did work way faster than 6 hours with this method, but I don’t agree with it being the only method, especially because *it is possible* to just sideload the specific XPI and get the fix instantly without changing any config parameters. Also some users claim studies are disabled by the distro maintainer or administrator, but which may not disable extensions as a whole.

    So why couldn’t – for advanced users who read that blog post anyway – Mozilla just directly link the hotfix extension?

    >Use a fork that does not take part in standards committees, does not try to push the web forward. Brave, Vivaldi and other Chrome forks benefit from Google’s data collection. They do not innovate on the web stuff, just nice UI on top of Google’s spyware. Use that!

    Irrelevant ramble.

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  30. Sorry, but if you defend Mozilla for letting their add-on certificates expire then you’re a fanboy. Is it as big of a deal of some people on here made it out to be? No. But it’s still absolutely inexcusable.

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  31. This is always going to happen when fuckups happen. The bigger the fuckup, the bigger the backlash. Why would you be disappointed in people for having the predictable normal reaction? Setting that standard, by definition, sets you up for disappointment.

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  32. Imagine white knighting some random company that makes a huge fuck up, it’s beyond pathetic. They fucked up royal and are going to get some much deserved flak for it.

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  33. >tl;dr
    >
    >Please try not to be negative!

    After this post specifically directing negativity to all sorts of people, including anyone who makes feature requests, I find this hard to take sincerely.

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  34. There is nothing wrong with complaining about a product when it fails to work properly. This is how companies and creators are kept accountable. Sorry not sorry.

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  35. What do you expect from a gigantic message board on the internet? Only professional-level coders are allowed to post? People are always going to be critical of things if there is a public forum to do so.

    Criticizing others for making this forum “unbearable” while posting a long whiny shouting rant isn’t really a good look.

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  36. I bate how every single time Mozilla does something wrong everyone instantly goes “ok that’s it I’m switching to chrome FF is the worst browser omg”

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  37. I do agree with you in some points, but ranting about ranting isn’t going to help either.

    I do understand frustration of person, who really trusts Mozilla and Firefox. Imagine that your hero who is there to protect you against bad world now does actions, which on surface look like they’re turning to bad side.

    It actually makes me happy to see that people care. Yes, some individuals are maybe too loud, but still… It’s frustrating to see that people in some subreddits don’t care about anything.

    But I do hope, that Mozilla employees who read this subreddit don’t take these rants too seriously. I think these rants ~~are~~ can be in specific instances helpful, but they might be painful on personal level.

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  38. Toxic people tend to live where their voices can hurt more. Firefox has enough user base but not too much. Complaining about Chrome wouldn’t get them enough credit, plus Google would not even notice them.

    I see the addons problem as inconvenient, but come on, the browser is fully working, it’s just a few days without addons. It’s an understandable mistake, nothing malicious about it.

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  39. What a waste of space comment. Build a less shitty product if you want people to quit complaining. Or, maybe don’t replace the not-shitty product that people liked with a newly-made-shitty product.

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  40. What is this some kind of gate keeping? Either that or you work for firefox.

    Firefox should be better than Chrome, I don’t expect much from google because Google isn’t known for privacy. When people complained about signing add-ons they ignored the users and look at them now. Keep acting like Google firefox, no one will use firefox if it’s the exact same thing as Chrome

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  41. > 1) People using antiquated versions and asking for support.

    Or using Nightly and asking for support or to disable the auto update. Nightly is not a product. It’s a test platform. And you are the test subject. If you don’t want to be a test subject or want support, install the stable version.

    > 4) Divorce letters

    Fuck it. Shut up and go.

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  42. I mean honestly if it wasn’t for the issues yesterday I wouldn’t have ever visited this sub and just happily used firefox. It was solved in under 24 hours and hopefully a better permanent solution will be implemented.

    I think Mozilla has handled getting financing the like pretty well. I’ve actually grown to really like pocket personally. Most the things you’re listing I didn’t even know were common complaints…

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  43. You know what’s a bigger security risk than old versions of firefox? having all your vpn and addons switch off without notice one day with nothing changing on your side. That companies can just switch off your browsing with a flick of a certificate.

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  44. Hard code expiration date into all addons.

    Forget to renew cert and be surprised when all addons stop working after that date.

    Be confused when users are angry their addons all stopped working.

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  45. I agree mostly. I wish this sub was filled with discussion of future direction, protocols, performance, web api changes, SVG, customisation tips, alerts about bugs and vulnerabilities. That sort of thing. This sub is a weird place though because people see themselves as customers of Mozilla, paying micro-cents with each little search, and that empowers them to bluster and moan when they encounter a problem.
    They tend not to think about the fact that it’s like sending a company wide email that your mouse stopped working.

    I do tend to agree that you might have been slightly too aggressive in your attack on this type of behaviour though. We just need to encourage people to try to have meaningful conversations and not just bring up their pet bug as a reason why all of Firefox is irredeemably broken forever.

    Also nice work – “divorce letters” cracked me up as a name for those posts. Holy moley thats exactly what they are.

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  46. People are complaining and are angry because Firefox fucked up majorly, and have been making decisions that contradict with what people use firefox for in the first place. Instead of white-knighting Firefox when they neither need, nor deserve it, either realize that Firefox is in the wrong, or don’t place any criticism in the “toxicity box”

    People who white-knight companies are the worst type.

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  47. I whole heartedly disagree with this post. The whole selling point of FF was that it was open and all that jazz or how they were different from Chrome. If you want the community to sit down, shut up, and not question some of Mozilla’s practices, then you’re basically advocating for FF to turn into another dictatorship like Chrome has. Really disappointed in this post and anyone who thinks along these lines. So much for being different I guess.

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  48. Well, recent trouble with add-ons was solved in less than 24 hours and my browser is fine and smooth now. I just don’t rant about it.

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  49. >a) addon signing

    Terrible decision on Mozilla’s part, even if it is a few years back doesn’t make it genius. It is bad! Not because I want random addons in my browser. You make it sound binary: accept what Mozilla has done or get infested by browser toolbars. It is *not* binary. Mozilla could choose an *implementation* that works better. Code verification is not a completely new problem people run into. Microsoft has binary signing on Windows for years. Google doesn’t disable your android app because some certificate expired. In both cases, they only warn/prevent installing unverified software, but once it installed it will keep running. Mozilla’s design is errorprone, because it relies on Mozilla’s central point of failure for both installing the addon and keeping it running. And when something is designed badly, it deserves some criticism. If Mozilla can’t take (well supported) criticisms, then their product will continue to be bad. Please don’t discourage criticism on for the sake of “we need a happy community and everyone should only say good things”, everyone having an opinion *is* what makes an open web.

    I have no strong comment on other subject mentioned.

    Edit:

    Oh sorry, missed another point that I disagree with.

    >b) using studies to ship features

    Mozilla can feel free to innovate using data collected through studies *as long as people agreed to the data collection*. Mozilla has a responsibility of disclosing its data collect practice, which it has done so in [“about studies” support page](https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/shield#w_how-do-i-participate). The problem is that it has not disclose the data collection practice in the [blog post about fixing the issue](https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2019/05/04/update-regarding-add-ons-in-firefox/). It didn’t warn people that *enabling studies will send data that is not covered by default data collection policy. And disabling studies after the fix will not cause those data sent to be deleted by Mozilla*. I personally don’t believe Mozilla was malicious in not disclosing this detail, I am sure Mozilla devs just wanted to fix the issue quickly and forgot about whatever law that require data collection to be fully disclosed. Since this feature is optional, I believe people have a point to not agree to this additional data collection, and it should not be forced on them, so this studies workaround should not be considered a permanent solution. And I don’t see why you need to bash other browsers. There are worse browsers out there doesn’t make Firefox objectively better.

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  50. One couple of hours glitch to something which is free in almost twenty years and everyone fills their pants with fury. Calm down. FF is great work.

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  51. Dear /u/kickass_turing! I feel you’re being overzealous, without grasping wider picture.

    Ad 1. I use both nightly and “antiquated” 56 (I try to limit it to secure intranet sites, though). There are very serious reasons for this.

    The split in users after 57 has greater impact on internet than you think. Look at current state of browsers. There are currently only two browsers in the world: Chromium and Firefox. Like, there are no alternatives. This is very, very bad thing to internet as a whole, and Mozilla’s influence is dwindling. Google’s grasp on Internet is tightening. And Ad. 2: Mozilla tries and innovates, but there are casualties. Power users are one, but replacing a whole API with nothing is a dick move.

    Currently both Chromium and Firefox are as closed down as possible, with very little in terms of customization possible. Extensions which turned our browsers into very versatile tools are precious to some people, and throwing it all out often means destroying years of work. It has been how many years since the 57 version? And I still haven’t found replacements for several of the extensions even by using external non-browser tools, and those I did find are are severely limited in functionality. What’s worse, it’s NOT going to change.

    For a browser to be as functional as old ‘antiquated’ Firefox was, I’d have to write my own browser from scratch, at most importing HTML renderer and JS engine from Firefox. This is not a fork, but a complete new product. I don’t have means or resources for such endeavor. I tried several forks, but most of them are short lived and still don’t deliver.

    Then Ad 3 and 4.: People are jerks. Be civil, adult, and ignore these.

    One thing is searching for someone to blame. This serves little purpose, as most of voting can be done trough usage statistics. Firefox is NOT climbing in that regard. Message has been sent.

    Another thing is to search for a resolution. Firefox could have proper module/extension system, with signing, permissions and access levels, but Mozilla simply has no people and money to implement that, and perhaps little will to do so, but last one is my personal opinion.

    And yes, Mozilla is people, they do err, and it’s normal. It’s bad only if it was easily preventable or conscious decision.

    We MUST wait for post-mortem analysis to understand what happened. No one should be hanged before the court is in.

    Whether Mozilla actually discloses all of information we wait for, well, that’s a thing to be seen.

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  52. Totally agree. Also We should have a sticky responding to memory related complaints rather than 1000000 threads with exactly the same content

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  53. Mozilla takes in hundreds of millions of dollars a year. It would cost much less than 1% of yearly revenue to add and support many of these features that we miss. People are still bending over backwards to use old legacy extensions that still don’t have webextensions versions. It would be a drop in the bucket for Mozilla to hire some devs to port or rewrite all of the most popular legacy extensions.

    So what, asking for Mozilla to properly support the product we’ve been evangelizing and installing on friends and family’s computers for 20+ years now (yes, since Netscape Navigator 3.0 in my case) is “spreading hate”, is it? **You’re acting like Mozilla is some helpless starving college kid writing OSS in his spare time, instead of a half billion dollar giant who could EASILY afford to treat their power user customer base, their *maven* customer base, with some consideration.**

    Mozilla has repeatedly shot itself in the foot (removing all of the features that made it distinct, even mandating that all future extensions be Chrome-compatible and banning all Firefox-only compatible extensions! What kind of strategy is that?) but fortunately it’s still stupid rich because the web browser market is so huge that being fourth or fifth place is still a really big deal. It’s not negativity to give you feedback. If the feedback sounds frustrated in tone, it’s because Mozilla still refuses to admit that its decision to ignore user feedback made this glitch 100x worse than it should have been.

    **If Mozilla is going to refuse to listen to all user feedback, they should come out and say so.** They have made literally billions of dollars off of advertising to us and selling our (meta)data.

    Your post reads like it was written by the love child of Adolf Hitler and Funshine Bear.

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  54. Isn’t it really annoying when people don’t all act the way you want?

    Of course, there are only two possible resolutions – change people or change your expectations.

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  55. I love and admire Firefox for their courage and will power to stand up against immense market competitions from ruthless and no conscience tech monsters. So stop complaining for once and acknowledge how much pressure their must be going through to stay independent and freedom.

    I salute all the people working at and for Firefox.Thank You all.

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  56. This a community run Firefox sub, not a latest release sub.

    People come here for support from the community, as [rightly] Mozilla don’t offer support for versions that old

    I totally agree about your “divorce letter” comment though, I never see the point of those for any product or service

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  57. >Please try not to be negative!

    I’ve never posted here. I don’t even read this sub. The only reason I am here now is to try and figure out why, all of the sudden, every add-on I use is not working.

    I’m just an everyday casual user, I’m not a coder, not a computer expert, not a Firefox fan boy. I use firefox because the add-ons are useful to me, so naturally, it’s quite annoying when they suddenly stop working. Furthermore, this isn’t the first time everything has just stopped working and I’ve had to dedicate hours to understanding why, to what end, and how to fix it.

    Imagine my surprise when, literally, the very first thread I see when coming to this community seeking answers and solutions, isn’t either of those things but instead, a thread telling people who are upset to go fuck themselves. Scrolling down, I haven’t seen a clear title explaining why this happened or how to fix, but I have seen a lot of threads by fanboys kissing ass, people yelling at fanboys and people just generally annoyed.

    TL;DR:

    Can someone point me in the direction of the thread that has solutions in it? I could care less about this subs idiotic squabbling over a fucking browser, I just want my shit to work.

    Reply
  58. These threads have run their course and is verging on a civil war on this sub-reddit.

    Locking the threads to preserve the peace. New threads will be closed.

    Also, a reminder: This is not an official Firefox community.

    Reply

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